“‘Underground’ is not a cool term.”

If you know me IRL, you might know that I’ve always found cultural discourse in Hong Kong to be dated. The language in the city’s magazines and art galleries all feels a bit too 2015. Articles in mainstream publications celebrate people “breaking boundaries.” Recent gallery collections are still pondering a world “beyond borders.” Too celebratory. Too optimistic. Too many Obama-era maxims on the tired subjects of identity politics and globalization.

When the world increasingly feels like it’s on fire, these words often land on deaf ears. They definitely fall flat on mine.

If the last few years have proved one thing, it’s that reality isn’t as fuzzy and warm and hopeful as these magazines and art galleries want it to be. The vibe has definitely shifted. Our discourse must follow suit. And rather than shoving hope down our throats, talking about social realities needs some more edge and a small (but necessary) dose of pessimism.

Two weeks ago, in the basement of Hong Kong’s Chungking Mansions, I had the opportunity to bring incisiveness back to the city’s cultural discourse. Working with art collective CRITICAL MASS, I moderated my first panel talk. I sat down with three cultural organizers in Hong Kong—Jake Morton (Feed the Dragon and MixMag Asia), Angel (ABYSS), Ahura Mazda (MÖTH Agency). Together, we answered the question, “What is “Underground” Nightlife in 2025?”

In front of a crowd of around 50, Jake, Angel, Ahura and I talked about many problems in defining the ever-elusive term of “underground,” a label which is increasingly co-opted by for-profit event businesses to give their parties some extra “cool.” We discussed how grassroots music often becomes an elite genre when consumed in Hong Kong, considered whether an “underground” culture can exist in the social media age, and slammed Boiler Room for not platforming grassroots talent at its recent Hong Kong event last May.

Biased as I may be, there was a refreshing level of specificity in my guests’ arguments that I hadn’t yet found in cultural institutions in the city. For example: “‘Underground’ is not a cool term. We need to make it not cool,” Ahura said, loud and clear, during the panel. “Being underground is actually really sad when you think about it. If you are ‘underground,’ it means that people in society hate you and they don’t want you to exist.”

Mid-way through the talk, Jake appraised the people he was speaking to: “I’m looking in the audience here… and I’ve seen some bloody good DJ sets,” he said. Indeed, the shoddy basement we were sitting in had become a temporary subcultural haven that afternoon. Chungking Mansions, once known as the setting of Wong Kar-wai’s Chungking Express (1994) and Fallen Angels (1995), was temporarily transformed into a mini gallery, where the works of over 20 local artists were on display (s/o CRITICAL MASS again!). In attendance were several big fish in the city’s independent arts scene: Local collective Yee manned the DJ sets. Indie R&B musician Risy performed live. And I said hello to several creatives I had previously interviewed on this newsletter. Asian youth culture publication RADII was also present for event coverage.

I can’t thank organizers Sunny and Ivana enough for platforming such a critical (pun intended) talk on a subject that often goes overlooked. What is “underground” nightlife in 2025? Watch—or read on below—for the full panel talk.

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Full Transcript

[00:00:20] Patrick: It seems like everything in nightlife wants to be underground nowadays. There are bars that position themselves as niche or hidden in an underground location. There are nightclubs platforming a little less than mainstream sounds that claim to be promoting the underground. There are publications like Mix Mag and Resident Advisor that use the word underground to describe nearly every damn DJ that’s up and coming. What does this all mean?

Hi everyone. My name is Patrick. I am the founder and author of the Chow, Hong Kong's first newsletter publication covering culture.

And I have three lovely guests sitting here with me this evening, and we are trying to figure out what is “underground” nightlife in 2025? So in doing reporting on subcultural scenes in Hong Kong, I notice how often bars, event spaces, and nightclubs use the label underground to market themselves even when they're everything but.

Nightclubs present themselves as underground to give themselves a little bit of edge to market, and it's really ironic even when, because in many, in many cases everyone knows these underground events. There are DJs who play underground sounds even when they're at mainstream and very institutionalized venues like Solo House.

And so what do we lose when we call everything underground? A real definition of the term is really, really elusive and hard to reach, but what happens when we apply it so liberally that it becomes meaningless?

In reading ethnographies and theories on club culture in preparation for this talk, the culture of the underground emerged first to imply some form of opposition or resistance. Original philosophies from underground culture and underground party movements emphasize the value of plural. Peace, love, unity, and respect. There were theories like the temporary autonomous zone, which was used to describe the ways in which dance floors and underground venues were spaces free of social, economic restrictions that were present in mainstream society.

So for the people pioneering underground culture, the underground party, as it originated, was a site of possibility, a place free of rules, and full of potential. These might be older theories, they might be dated, but can they still be applicable today? What counts as underground in 2025? And can we even define it?

I'd now like to ask my three amazing guests, Jake, Angel, and Ahura, to introduce themselves. Can you tell me who are you? What do you do? And a quick yes or no, does the work that you do count as underground or not?

[00:03:31] Jake: I'm Jake Morton. I'm a photographer originally from the UK where I worked in nightlife, both as a manager and photographer. And then moved out to Hong Kong about five, six years ago. I am a photographer and videographer for Feed the Dragon Hong Kong, associate photographer for MixMag Asia. And I'm currently producing, directing, doing everything for my own documentary called Notes on the Underground, which is an exploration of the development of British-origin dance music culture across Asia.

To answer whether what I do is underground or not, I'm gonna say “yes, but” and leave it at that.

[00:04:12] Patrick: Great start. Angel?

[00:04:15] Angel: I'm Angel. I am the co-founder of the local Event Collective Abyss, and I'm also the promoter and organizer of various events in Hong Kong.

Abyss is a local event collective that focuses on techno music and hopes to be a community centered around the appreciation of the music. And also we hope to provide a platform for local talents to showcase their sound. I would say that our work mostly counts as underground because, various aspects of what we do, and I guess some of it can be considered as underground.

[00:04:59] Ahura: Hello. Hi everyone. I'm Ahura. I am one of the co-founders of MÖTH Agency, which is a queer and femme event collective in Hong Kong. And also one of the co-founders of MÖTH Radio, which is just an education platform for DJs to come and perform with us.

It's essentially a nonprofit. We have monthly free events and fundraisers and stuff like that, situated at a space in central. I don't think what we do is constituted as underground, but there are elements of underground culture that we have taken from. But, I would say what I do is not underground.

[00:05:45] Patrick: “Underground,” obviously, as we've seen from your different answers, means very different things for different people and different communities. And seeing how slippery its definition can be, I want to ask the three of you, what do you think counts as underground culture? And what are the specific qualities that something needs to be considered underground?

[00:06:15] Ahura: Oh my God, this is actually a very interesting topic. I believe that to be underground, I think we have to go to the origin of where underground has come from, and I think it's really rooted in anti-colonial, anti-capitalist movements of people through art. It actually started from the arts and it moved its way into music. So for me, anything that is underground has to be at least a form of antithesis to what capitalism is, and how it places people in positions of poverty and oppression.

And so for me, I think underground needs to have some form of liberty to it. Some it needs to be some form of a liberation against a mainstream that is crushing minorities, that is oppressing groups of people. I guess if you go to the real definition, where I'm from in Iran, a lot of things are illegal, but there's still a lot of raves happening in the corners of the city as an act of protest

And for me, there needs to be some stakes on the line when you're “underground,” there needs to be some opposition to a grander force. I think that's the best way that I can put it. So that's where my definition of undergrad comes from.

[00:07:38] Angel: I partly agree with what Ahura said. I think that maybe I would say from a Hong Kong person's perspective and an events perspective, so to be an underground event is that you have to be independent and kind of anti-capitalist. So you're self financing the event and also your main focus isn't the profitability and or your focus isn't the profitability at all.

Your focus is to spread a certain culture or you want to build a certain community around the culture. And I think some traits that apply to the Hong Kong context, in my opinion, is that it has to be grassroots. The organizer has to be an ordinary person.

It can't be corporate, it can't be from an institution, it cannot be discovered in the mainstream media. You have to research, to look a bit past the surface in order to find it. That sort of “underground” to me.

[00:08:53] Jake: Yeah. I think a large amount of what I believe has been covered by Angel. But for me, the sort of key tenets of “underground” from my experience, both in the UK and here, has been self-determination. So whether that's sort of community owned infrastructure, and that attitude as well towards the economics of it, that you are not putting on an event to maximize the amount of money that you're making, and to extract money from what this is.

So for me, “underground” has always been the sort of R&D department of culture that a lot of people—capitalists—use to extract wealth from. So you might find a bunch of different underground parties, whether they're, you know, UK garage and UK inspired or whether it's techno—and some of those parties do really well and some of those parties don't do so well.

And in certain cases, certain genres really blow up from the underground. I mean, look at UK Garage in the last sort of five years. That was something that I used to go to UK Garage Nights where there were 20 people. To see it now, to see it being played in Times Square is crazy. But from then it started off as underground.

It wasn't being sold to people and now seeing its rise and seeing different promoters and organizations sell it to me, when you are selling something that's not giving back into the culture, that's when it ceases to be “underground.” But yeah, to boil down what I've said, for me it's about self-determination of the culture, and the independent ownership of the infrastructure within that culture.

[00:10:28] Patrick: I think that's a great point to bring up for this next question that I wanna ask. I want to complicate the discussion a little bit. As we've seen with UK Garage, a lot of these sounds originate from the very grassroots level in the UK and in the West.

At least when they start. But as they're spread out throughout the world, as these sounds and these genres become a little bit more globalized, they're actually consumed and listened to, actually by elite groups outside of the West.

One paper that I was reading in preparation for this was talking about how, even though electronic dance music originated as a grassroots and subcultural mode in the United Kingdom, it was consumed in China by the globalized upper middle class and it was used as an elite cultural genre. Transferring that to Hong Kong and thinking about where we are today, can an underground exist in Hong Kong, seeing how it's usually, elite groups that are consuming this music and these genres?

[00:12:03] Jake: I'm really drawing a blank on that one. That's genuinely the one that I've drawn a blank on, so I'll pass us down the couch.

[00:12:11] Ahura: I always have opinions.

[00:12:12] Patrick: Ahura, I see an answer in your eyes.

[00:12:12] Ahura: I'm being present in the moment. To answer this question, we need to look at a little bit of anthropology here and how human social structures work.

If you look at jazz in the United States in the 1910s, it was looked as a disgustingly seductive and anti-Christian movement by African Americans in the US. A lot of the upper class loved going to these raunchy jazz bars where they let go of their ideologies of abstinence to just feel sexy and to feel different.

And to then go back to their other rich friends and rave all about it. So that this is a really common social cycle. And it happened to EDM, it's happening to hardcore right now. And I, to answer your question of whether there are underground groups in Hong Kong, absolutely. I think the super local, hardcore groups in Hong Kong are to me, the epitome of underground and they do exist and they're selling out, baby. But the motivation is not money, but they are selling out. These are the biggest raves that are happening in Hong Kong right now, around 400 to 500 every other week in secret outdoor locations.

I would just shout it out to them because I can really see that they're doing it for just survival and who they are as people. Even with jazz, nobody was talking about the African American jazz musicians that really started that genre, as they have with a lot of genres actually.

But when Gershwin came, who was the first white jazz producer, he became one of the biggest ravers of jazz ever. Right? But that's kind of how it goes. They want to allow you to nurture this culture until they can jump on it, replace you with someone in a position of privilege, and then milk it out.

And I think it's happening with hardcore for sure. I can see it in real time.

[00:14:28] Angel: Thanks Ahura for educating us on anthropology. I do agree that in Hong Kong there is an underground, as Ahura has mentioned, there is a very underground, local kind of scene that regularly throws raves at outdoor places or warehouses. And I definitely think that it is considered “underground.”

I would like to share a bit of my personal experience on the Hong Kong nightlife scene. I've been going out for almost one tech decade now or more. When I first started I went to those more mainstream clubs in Central.

EDM was one of the most consumed music genres. And then as time goes by, I discover more of the underground scene where events are not happening in traditional, conventional clubs. They’re happening on beaches, they're happening in warehouses, et cetera.

I do think that there is a stark contrast in these two types of events, in mainstream clubs and in unconventional venues. I would say that if you ask a normal person in Hong Kong, in the nightlife area, if they know about underground music, past the most mainstream clubs, not many people have discovered the underground scene in Hong Kong.

So I definitely think there is a scene in Hong Kong and it's not mainstream.

[00:16:12] Ahura: Can I add something to that? I completely agree with what Angel and Jake are saying, I think one important thing to note is that in Hong Kong there is also a spectrum of underground.

I would say that “underground” is not a pure quality. It is kind of a range of behaviors and practices and I think in Hong Kong it really mimics the social class division that exists financially in this uber rich city that has incredible poverty. Right? The reality is most clubs in Hong Kong, most of the successful collectives in Hong Kong are run by rich people.

They are already rich, and then they decide to use the money that they have from something else to create something underground. But for me, that's not how it works. Whereas the local raves that we really talk about actually come from, a lot of kids that come from super low income families—even dysfunctional families, right?

Distraught by the drug epidemic in Hong Kong and the poverty and the housing epidemic. So I think that really differentiates “underground” for me in Hong Kong as well.

[00:17:29] Patrick: We're really bringing up what is complicating this definition of “underground”.

All of you have talked about how high net worth investors fund “underground” events for profit. And I think a very great and very timely recent example is Boiler Room, a brand that formed as a side project and became an investment darling for venture capitalists and private equity investors.

And social media as well. I think it's an important thing to bring up because it makes once obscure and hidden things easy to access for the public, right? With these complications, I wanna ask each of you an individual question relating to your work.

So Jake, you personally witnessed how underground, specifically in the UK (which is where a lot of this is happening first) how that has evolved, from something more grassroots, something from lower income communities, and into something for people to make money. Can you share a little bit more about that experience, number one, and how does that compare to what you see in Hong Kong and your work today?

[00:18:45] Jake: So from my experience in the UK, I was mainly involved with bass music in the northeast of England. So very much not at the epicenter of these music cultures, but still close enough that we were engaging with the culture. With some of the artists that we work with that became sort of global mega stars in those genres, we really saw their rise.

So for me, the biggest difference between the scene in the UK and the scene here is the tiers of infrastructure that exist in the UK for artists, producers, DJs, that it's very mapped out to an extent of where you can be. So I worked for underground—I'm gonna call it “underground”—parties there and there were DJs there who were good friends of mine who developed their music. Some people had a really big commercial viability for what they did. Others didn't. Others were allowed to experiment with their sounds and they had the space for it. But for some of those other DJs that were sort of local scene darlings, they had another rung of the ladder to get onto.

That might be sort of regional labels or parties in different cities that they were able to sort of get on board with. And that allowed them to then access the next rungs of the ladder of the music industry for them. And they were still able to bring that sound that was nurtured in the underground in my city, to then bring that sound and then somewhere along the way that sound gets sort of commercialized and capitalized on. But that's what I saw from my experience as someone that worked in this sort of, I call it the cultural R&D Department of Music in this place. There were so many rungs along the ladder.

Whereas what I see amongst artists, DJs, promoters in Hong Kong is that either, a lot of them look outside of Hong Kong as the next step in their sort of careers. Particularly for artists from not rich backgrounds, that is a massive, massive problem. I'm from a working class city in the northeast of England, the crew that I was part of was literally just a bunch of people who weren't the rich kids. But there was a crew that did exactly what we did a year after we did it, and they had fucking loads of money. They used to book all the successful acts that we booked a year afterwards because they knew that they made money.

But for a lot of people, and I mean a lot of incredible music is built by strong, creative working class people who have been able to access these rungs of infrastructure. And here again with people looking outside of Hong Kong as the next step, they don't have that. So you do have a scene here that's very strong; it's quite insular in that, when people are very successful, you know, we sort of stick around, we help each other out. They don’t f-off to London or wherever.

[00:22:19] Patrick: I think we could probably have an entire panel talk on the market for DJs and the professionalization of DJs, but that's probably a subject for another day.

Angel, something that I think is really interesting about what Abyss does is you bring a lot of sort of “underground” tactics and techniques and you bring them onto the internet.

So when I was speaking to your co-founder Shanda, something interesting you do is switch up the idea of the door policy—you know, typically an in-person vibe check of people entering the parties—you bring that to social media, sort of vibe checking the people who are interested in your events and see if that aligns with the values you wanna uphold.

I wanna get your thoughts on how underground nightlife is evolving in the social media age and can it exist? When the internet just sort of claws on everything and makes it visible?

[00:23:31] Angel: think that the underground can still exist in today's social media world. I see social media as just a way to spread the information and as a means for people to discover that type of music, that type of culture. It’s the same as before when people, I talked to some people that were in the raves in Hong Kong, and they're saying back in the days they were promoting events, they were just at an event, and then they're giving out a bunch of flyers, exchanging CDs to discover events.

I think that social media just shifted this mode of promoting events to online. On your point on how Abyss has kind of shifted the door policy online: a fun fact when the first ever party we started, we didn't have social media yet. We just spread the party through WhatsApp because it was during COVID times and it was kind of risky to be publicized.

And then at the first few parties, we were also using an online password for ticketing in order to make it not easily detected. I think that social media is definitely a good tool to spread the culture, but it definitely brings more attention to the underground, then maybe sometimes it would bring unwanted people to the events as well.

[00:25:29] Patrick: And you know, Ahura, you said something interesting about not considering MÖTH to be underground. Something that I've been reading and something that comes up with these subcultural communities is that they use style and aesthetics as ways to subvert the norm. MÖTH is obviously outside of what counts as normative in Hong Kong. Can you explain a little bit more why you don't consider MÖTH underground?

[00:26:01] Ahura: We started off MÖTH as a queer-representation-in-media project. I think those two things are contradictory.

We wanna be seen, but we don't wanna be seen. That doesn't make sense. So I would say that's why I don't consider what we do underground. I think we have a lot of underground qualities. I could name them, but it doesn't matter.

When we throw a MÖTH party at a venue in Hong Kong, I don't feel like I'm about to be busted down and prisoned,, put aside and investigated at all actually. If you throw raves, you know that they're relatively safe to throw. Worst case scenario, the cops come in, and they're like, can you keep it down? We got a noise complaint. It’s not really like, what are you doing? We're gonna get all of you.

Maybe it is the context of the fact of me being Iranian. I think my definition of underground is very different. My cousin is gay and he was arrested at a gay party when he was young, and everybody got arrested by literally the cops coming through the roof with zip lines.

It's a crazy bust down operation. And every single person got a criminal record so everywhere they would apply for a job, they would have to be vetted out and outed actually by their criminal record.

I just don't feel like we're underground because no one gives a shit that we exist, you know what I mean? They're pretty on board with how cunty we look on social media, actually. If you wanna fight for representation while at the same time wanting to be underground, it just doesn't make sense.

We are so proud that we are independent. We are a working class community. No nepo baby thing going on over here. And we really have robust systems that allow anybody to join us. What I love about us, to be honest, is that over the years we've implemented really concrete systems for supporting the community and our parties. If you cannot afford a party, we have equitable access. We even put it in the registration form. So every person who buys a ticket knows that we have this. We don't just make a post about it and then forget about it. It's in the registration form. We have a free radio. We have three workshops a month.

So I would say, I'm really proud that we're independent, but I just don't feel like we're underground at all.

[00:28:41] Patrick: I think that's a great point to segue into the second last question. With underground being used so liberally as a term, is it still relevant? Is it still important? Should we still be using it and thinking about it as hard as we are now? Can I get your thoughts?

[00:29:10] Angel: I think that it's definitely not the right thing to package underground as a product to sell to other people. And there's lots of people that see this adjective and think that an event is cool. It has lost its meaning as Jake has said. I think what is the most important today in the scene is that, I feel like I think everyone should support their promoters, support their event organizers, especially the grassroots ones because of how difficult it is to organize an event.

We don't do it for profitability. We just do it because we want to build a community around the music and the culture. And I feel like not many people understand that—how important it is to support these grassroots collectives and yeah, just respect each other and support your local DJs promoters.

[00:30:19] Ahura: Amen. I would love to reclaim “underground” and I would love to just give it to people who need it and are actually defining themselves as a community. It’s been abused. I think the word is abused by capitalism like it's some kind of a fun thing. But being underground is actually really sad when you think about it.

It's not cool. If you are underground, it means that people in society hate you and they don't want you to exist—you gotta fight for your right to exist. It's not a cool term. I don't see how underground is used for things to sell. And I think it comes from a really sad place, that there are certain people that don't have a right to exist according to the state, and they have to find ways to persist and to just simply be alive.

“Underground” is not a cool term. We need to not make it cool. And I think another rule should be that you cannot proclaim yourself to be underground. It should be a title given to you by at least somebody else.

If somebody says, we are an underground collective, don't believe them. You cannot proclaim to be an underground collective. People should be able to tell by how you operate that you are an underground organization, venue, or anything else.

Even coming back to Boiler Room, I just came here to actually just hate on Boiler Room. “Private equity” and “underground” cannot go in the same sentence. You need to stop. So I just feel like even if it's used in marketing, I would immediately disregard it and I wouldn't take that seriously.

So, to recap: somebody else needs to label you underground; it's really sad that underground exists even in the first place; and fuck Boiler Room. That's all I have to say.

[00:32:28] Patrick: Can I just get—from each of you—one sentence. If there's one thing you want our listeners of the talk today to take away from the discussion we just had, what would that be?

[00:32:51] Jake: Maybe this isn't the core topic, but I think touching on Boiler Room for a second… During the pandemic, most people's experience of dance music and dance music culture was online. There's a whole generation of people who have grown up understanding that dance music is standing by the DJ booth, looking kind of hot, and just pointing at the DJ. And what Boiler room did was extract that one aspect of one part of a club culture and sell it to a lot of people.

And what we have to do as cultural agents, as people, part of this scene is to take a holistic approach to developing club culture and being a part of it. And I think what people don't understand as much as they should is that. Getting your Boiler Room set is just them extracting something from your culture. Boiler Room doesn't exist without those people—those people exist without Boiler room.

So you look at all your friends who are in the scene, or your DJs or your event organizers, they are the rock stars already. They don't need a boiler room or anything to show who they are.

So look at the amount of DJs, the amount of producers in Hong Kong who are producing absolutely incredible music to their friends, to a couple of hundred people—that's worth everything that it is. This is it, this is the culture. Engage with it. Everyone who has a part to play who's doing it 'cause they love it. That's what it's about. Go support them, go see it. 'cause I'm looking in the audience and here and I've seen some bloody good DJ sets and some really cool music produced by people even just looking at this room. So this is it. This is what it is.

[00:34:49] Angel: I also second that I think that. Don't just go to an event because everyone else is going and because you look at it online and think it's cool.

You really have to experience the culture instead of just going because other people are going. And it is important to understand the culture behind an event. If you're going to any events or any raves, research the music, research the DJ that is playing, and instead of just going and leaving.

[00:35:36] Ahura: Final thoughts. I would say go to independent events. The big festivals look really fun. But not only are they more expensive, they're really shallow experiences. When you go to independent parties, you'll meet people that you will keep with you for life. If you go to a big festival, you're gonna get a few Instagram pictures. That sounds really fun. I'm not saying that's bad, I get the temptation, but I've met all my best friends through independent parties. I really call them my family.

And the second thing is—and I really need you guys to listen—please get your tickets early. It really helps local organizers when people buy tickets early, it's really scary when an independent event costs $30,000. And you are basically in debt until the last day where 80 people decide to get tickets in one day. We really wanna start an education campaign on this, but it really helps when you get your tickets early. Put it in your calendar, lock in a budget. Like, every month I'm gonna spend a thousand dollars to go to independent events and I'm gonna schedule them in advance. And if that day I know I'm gonna get busy and some other plan is gonna come up, I'm just gonna let the local organizers have it. They've worked really hard.

I come from a low income background. I work with a stable salary of 28,000HKD per month.

It's a pretty good amount and I can definitely afford to support my local organizers. So please get your tickets early and go to more independent events. Shout out to Abyss. Shout out to Feed the Dragon, Bad Times Disco, MÖTH. They're really good independent organizers in the city and I can tell you that these events are the best events you'll ever go to in your entire life if you go in with an open mind and an open heart.

[00:38:11] Patrick: Thank you everyone for your time and for listening, and thank you so much to the three amazing guests who have taken time out of their day to speak with me and talk about a really interesting subject. I think we have time for one question.

[00:38:33] Person in the audience: Thanks for your insights today. I thought it was really interesting. I just want to get back on the Boiler Room points. I wasn't able to go to the Boiler Room event in Hong Kong. I was traveling.

I think we can all agree on the hyper commercialization of the brand, but do you think there's also a perspective playing with devil's advocate that it was also an opportunity to present underground electronic music to a lot of younger people in Hong Kong who would maybe go to different clubs in Hong Kong and because it was hyper commercialized, were able to have access to a completely different genre that they would normally listen to.

Do you think that there are some aspects of what Border room did in Hong Kong that was maybe good for these younger generations who are starting to go out and going to parties and listening to music?

[00:39:43] Ahura: I have so many opinions. First of all, I wanna say the moral arc of the universe is long. It takes a very long time to figure out whether something has been truly negatively impactful or positively. I will say the kids that need underground music and alternative culture will find it for the pure sake of survival, not because they saw it on TV or on a Boiler Room set.

They'll hear it from their friends. They'll hear it on SoundCloud. I think there are a lot of better channels for representation than Boiler Room, with a thousand dollar tickets. The audience is not who you think it is. That's all I'm gonna say. My friends actually organized Boiler Room in Vietnam and they're a really underground, low income queer collective. My friends organized Boiler Room Philippines. And those countries need representation. Hong Kong is a rich, rich, rich city. They brought 10 DJs from fricking Singapore. Very few local collectives, if any, were added last minute to their lineups.

I understand what you're saying and I can see why people can see it from that perspective, I just think that's not where their intention is at. And I think the intention really, really matters. When the plan of Boiler Room was to be set in Hong Kong, no one was thinking, let's uplift our community. That's what they're gonna justify when I call them out. I'm sure that's what they're gonna bring up, but I just don't think rich Hong Kong kids need representation on social media. They get enough.It's a rich city. It's a financial city. People are doing pretty well here.

But I would say, Boiler Room Philippines did a great job at platforming budots with DJ Love and all the incredible artists that played there. But that was different. That was they funded them; Boiler Room gave them money to organize an event. Whereas their event with Hong Kong was purely commercial.

[00:42:10] Patrick: We're almost out of time. Angel, do you want to give a couple final thoughts on the question?

[00:42:15] Angel: I agree with your comments and one of my comments for the Boiler Room event is that people just feel like most people are just going there for the brand name.

It's because of Boiler Room. And also it’s not representative of the Hong Kong underground scene at all. They just covered a few very successful Hong Kong collectives, but they didn't invite any of the community-based or more grassroots collectives in Hong Kong. There are actually so many to cover.

Although it kind of gives an exposure of dancing music to other people, I feel like people are going to the event with the intention of going for the brand name and just for social media.

[00:43:18] Ahura: Can I add something? I wanna actually thank Boiler Room for creating a conversation on the importance of independent organizing in Hong Kong. At the very least.

[00:43:33] Patrick: Awesome. So can everyone please join me in thanking my three lovely guests. Thank you to everyone for coming in.